The Three Peaks Challenge, reaching the highest summits of Scotland, England and Wales (Ben Nevis, Scafell and Snowdon respectively) within 24 hours is a poplar objective for many walkers.
With this much walking to do, the longest days of the year around mid-June are perhaps the busiest challenge days. Consequently the weekend just past was possibly the busiest. When we arrived in Wasdale there were already a dozen or so mini-buses in the valley, and all weekend – despite the miserable weather – challengers marched past Brackenclose on their way to the summit of Scafell. Some were wearing just trainers and cotton gym tracksuits in the driving rain. How dangerous is that? Maybe this is okay for a fine summer day, but with nil visibility and wind strong enough in the valley to rip branches from mature oak trees (see video here – therefore certainly much stronger on the top) it has to be foolhardy, doesn’t it?!
Why do the challengers come?!
Well, aside from the obvious physical challenge, taking a look at the Red Cross web site suggests it is to raise funds for their charity – and boy they must be raking it in – £250 to take part, plus a minimum sponsorship pledge of £2,750! A nice little earner for the charities. 😉 😉
Plus there’s all the money spent on equipment, food and of course not an insignificant amount of petrol/diesel to ferry all those people half the length of Britain. How much of this money goes into the local economies of Fort William, Lake District or Snowdonia? None! :angry:
These people –
- Often buy all their supplies (food and equipment) back in their base areas,
- Burn 100s of litres of expensive carbon fuels,
- Erode footpaths,
- Don’t linger even an extra second to notice the beauty of their surroundings,
- Block up tiny country lanes with dozens of waiting mini-buses, and
- Perhaps worst (?), leave rubbish all over the hills in their wake!
I bet they even think their green credentials are intact thanks to the charitable contributions! :angry:
This one was at the summit cairn, others were simply discarded on the grass to side of the footpath. 😥
In the mountain environment banana skins take years to biodegrade! Thanks to the combined effects of desiccation in baking sunlight on fine days and freezer-like conditions in winter these skins will fester on for years to come. Not nice! :angry:
Sure, it’s a free country and everyone is free to accept a challenge and enjoy the mountains – I, and my friends, get out in the mountains and challenge ourselves every day we can. But… We linger in the mountains and enjoy their beauty. Sure, we use quite a bit of diesel/petrol driving to Wales etc. too, but we go for the whole weekend or longer to savour these places. We support the local economies whenever we can by buying a cup of tea, cake, meal, pint, equipment, etc. from local businesses and shops. And as for the worst (?) offence of these visitors – litter? We NEVER EVER leave any litter what-so-ever!
Come on guys, if you can’t do the green version, the Sailing Three Peaks Challenge and spend your food budget locally, at least make sure you contribute a bit to the BMC Access Fund (to help maintain footpaths) and most of all take your litter home! Easy.
Yeah, fully concur your sentiment 🙁
Don’t have a photo, and probably just as well, but one guy with a big sack stopped by one of the Brackenclose trees for a pee – not behind the tree (probably acceptable) but IN FRONT OF IT 😎 in other words, in full view of the hut :angry:
You’re right Pete, next year lets set up a machine gun position to make the ascent of Scafell even more hazardous. 👿 👿
I completely agree with your views too. I must confess I hadn’t realised banana skins take so long to biodegrade at altitude. I have been guilty of discarding the odd one or two in the past thinking it wouldn’t do any harm & maybe give a bug or two a snack. Certainly 00’s of people doing the same thing is totally unacceptable. Lingering longer to take in the view is probably the furthest thing from their minds too – just keeping putting one foot in front of the other is an achievement. One hopes that they will return in more leisurely circumstances and maybe pick up some litter to take home.
I will add my two pennorth to all the above: I agree as well!
I do disagree to an extent, hence the website… You certainly can’t group all these Three Peaks Challengers in a single, disruptive, wasteful group. I’ve been with a number of groups who wouldn’t dream of leaving rubbish – I would also argue that just the same percentage of casual weekend walkers and Three Peakers would litter.
You are certainly right however that the challenge obviously involves using a great deal of fuel to move each challenge team all over the country. The purer Three Peaks by yacht will hopefully be gradually seen as the more appropriate version, by those who wish to push themselves even further…
There is an over crowding problem though. It’s not very relaxing or enjoyable having to queue to reach the Snowdon peak.
Thanks for the comment Nick – and glad to see that you agree with some, if not all, of my points. As you point out, there will always be exceptions; for example, some weekend walkers who litter, or some three peak challengers who go so far as to tidy up other people’s litter. But as a whole I think most three peak challengers are new comers to the hills who don’t understand the environment and treat it with the same lack of thought as they might the high street out for a Saturday night’s entertainment, i.e. they see the hills as another form of amusement, not a sensitive and fragile landscape…
By-the-way, yes, the challenge by yacht does seem like a good way to go! I might even be interested in that myself! 🙂
The Yacht Race is probably one of the hardest challenges I can remember – try running the 26 mile round trip up Scafell Pike after being sea-sick for hours on end… I believe they are allowed to use bikes now though… However, most teams still have land-based support vehicles…
A small amount of groups opt to cycle the 450 mile route, but again, most with vehicular back up.
We take a number of groups on the challenge, and organise a number of events for charity too. A “well” organised event should be able to address a lot of the issues mentioned above. Teams will buy food and equipment in Fort William, as well as overnight accommodation, and we use venues in Llanberis for the finish. Teams are required to attend a training and familiarisation day or weekend in Wasdale or Borrowdale, even though they are unlikely to spend any money there during the event itself if it is a 24 hour challenge.
A “well” organised challenge will employ some 20-25 qualified mountain and safety staff during an event, will co-operate with the NT, National Parks and local landowners and local MRT, will be fully insured, and will have a licenced VHF radio system, will ensure walkers are fully aware of the routes, behaviour when in the mountains or around small communities, will supply emergency group equipment, and will check that walkers have the minimum level of walking kit required.
Unlike small independant groups who just turn up and go, we plan events some 12 months in advance, and also get charged by local authorities, landowners, etc., and some of this money goes towards path maintenance, rubbish removal, parking, etc. This does all cost quite a lot of money.
The agencies, along with a number of organisers, are working towards a new set of guidelines for 2009.
As Pete suggests, many Three Peaks Challengers are new to the hills and mountains. If we can educate them before they set out on their challenge, then they may go well prepared, know how to behave, enjoy the challenge and become regular visitors to the mountains. If we are hostile to them, they they are likely to just go ahead anyhow, causing more of the problems as mentioned…
Come one Richie & Nick, you both run web sites and businesses based on people doing the Three Peaks Challenge, so what are you actually doing / contributing to make things better? And by that I mean in terms of hard cash… ❗ ❓
Put some money where you words are, don’t just pay lip-service to the concerns!
Hi Pete, I’ve no idea what Nick does. I’ve tried to detail some of what we do in my post above. I assume that from your “hard cash” comment you have no interest in anything other than payments?
An event with around 10-15 teams of 4-6 walkers will put around £5k directly into the areas of Fort William, Wasdale or Seathwaite, and Llanberis. This is from the organisers, not including anything teams themselves will spend at those areas (ie, accommodation, food, equipment, fuel). Most mountain staff employed are local to the areas.
Yes, I do mean payments – but not to me! I made one suggestion in the article above, the BMC Access Fund, but there are others. I’d just like to see some of the profits from these events going back in to the local areas (especially the Lake District, where I live 😉 )… I often feel that the Lakes gets the worst deal, not being a starting or ending point, people seem to just rush through as quickly as possible! Yet it is one of the most beautiful places on earth; yes, I’m biased, but 12m visitors a year can’t be all wrong!
Hi Pete, we don’t make any contributions to the BMC Access Fund. There are lots of different funds (ie Fix the Fells, JMT etc.,) and we do not pay into any of these. However, we pay the local authority instead, and they in turn put money into these schemes as they see fit.
We organise training and familiarisation days and weekends in the Lakes, and teams are shown the area they will be visiting during their challenge. We stay in local accommodation, eat in local pubs, buy equipment from the Barn Door, etc. The last training event was attended by the area NT Ranger, and the groups were addressed by the Ranger.
I love the Lakes too, and have a caravan there. However, objections to challenge events using Wasdale or Seathwaite often end with “…and they don’t spend any money here”. Would it be OK if each walker paid a fiver to use Wasdale or Seathwaite? No, it wouldn’t alter anything, just make someone a bit richer. It wouldn’t stop people leaving litter, weeing on footpaths and in the gill, walking off the made up path, or taking totaly useless equipment and clothing, or getting lost and ringing MRT to rescue them.
I believe that education is the key. Hopefully people will see my website, use the forum, and be fully prepared for the challenge, aware of the problems you’ve highlighted. Have a read of my actual website content.
If people decide to enter one of my events or use one of my services – great. If not, we will still send as much information as they ask for to encourage a safe, well informed group of people heading into the hills 🙂
I’ve just seen your posts and came across this by coincidence today:
The guidelines are on-line on the
Wasdale MRT website
And there are some photos here from Wasdale MRT of the amount of vehicles landing in Wasdale (they said there was gridlock at 4.00am – how can this be putting money into the local community?) and the damage being caused.
I’m quite glad I’ve not camped as Wasdale for a while otherwise I may have had a few sleepless nights with 3 peakers walking past my tent.
Hi David,
As stated above, new guidlines are being prepared for charity and corporate organisers for 2009 to try and reduce these problems. We are aware of some groups actually parking in the MRT parking area..!
If organised groups follow the guidelines then the area should never become gridlocked, no-one should need to go anywhere near the campsite(s), and walkers should stay on the made-up footpath rather than the grassed area next to it.
Not sure about your reference to putting money into the local community though. Would this make a difference? If so, exactly how?
Richie..
Richie, you are very defensive of your business, and why not, it’s part of how you make your living. However, you can’t simply rely on an endless defence of “if we educate it’ll make people behave better”, or “we follow guidelines, it’s now up to the participants”. That’s just passing the buck and paying lip-service to the issue. It will never be fixed if you rely on others to follow guidelines. Consider road speed limits – these are well taught (everyone has to pass a driving test) and are enforced (by the police, speed traps etc.), but people still speed. Sure, education is part of it, a very important part, but it also needs action from organisations like yours! You should act, not just educate and hope guidelines are followed. Perhaps you should do something to show the way? Organise a meeting of all the commercial organisations to get the ball rolling on how to improve, (directly) pay for path repair, run a special event whose objective is to collect litter, etc, etc…
Don’t be defensive, be proactive!
Thanks for your comments Pete. We do, in fact, have meetings with other commercial operators, National Parks, National Trust, Local Authorities, and other stakeholders. To pay (directly) for a path repair is not really possible. Next year may see some special events, but we always sweep the area for litter before leaving any venue.
We are very proactive, we don’t just pass the buck at all, and welcome any suggestions that will reduce the impact of the challenge. Sure, people still speed, but when they understand what may happen if they hit a child at 40mph, rather than 30 mph, hopefully they will slow down a bit! Education. As for Police, speed traps, etc – the authorities may, in the future, be able to stop some poorly organised events from happening. However, small individual groups with no experience, the guy in the trainers and gym tracksuit, are more difficult to regulate.
Just telling them to go away, or threatening to set up a machine gun, doesn’t really help solve the problem.
As a multi 3 peaker who has done the challenge solo, as a duo and with a 4 person team I would like to give my tuppence worth.
My team does at least 4 training walks on various mountains in the lakes before the event. We spend money in cafes, at campsites and pubs. We dont buy our fuel there due to the high price charged in comparison to our local supermarket but still contribute hundreds to the local economy.
We leave no litter except due to my ignorance numerous banana skins which from now on I wont.
I have urinated on the mountains behind various rocks like hundreds of others and I presume Wainwright did the same unless he had a bladder the size Scafell.
My team has raised thousands for causes as diverse as street kids in peru and the great north air ambulance with every penny raised going to these charities and none on expenses.
I have walked solo, never seeing a person up Helyvellen, Scafell and Skiddaw out of season still spending money in the lakes and contributing to the local economy when the fair weather walkers are tucked up by their fires.
In total I probably spend two weeks a year there sometimes with a family group of up to twenty spending a great deal of money.
I spend about 8 hours a year in the lakes for the 3 peaks driving in, doing Scafell and then driving out.
Is this what bothers the 3 peak opponenents, the fact we are there or the dubious fact we dont contribute to the local economy.
Anyway its a mute point, everyone has the right to walk the mountains whether for pleasure, fund raising or just the sense of achievement.
We also contribute to the local economy in Fort William paying the very high B/B prices, fuelling up at the petrol station and enjoying the local pubs the night before.
I dont personally but I know a lot of people stay in Wales after their challenge.
I feel I contribute more to these communities than the whingers whose sole contribution seems to be a whine on pages like these.
My next challenge will take place in June when a proportion of our money raised will go the WMR team whose opinion and actions I have the utmost respect for.
Mark
Thanks Mark, but this is not a “whine”!
You say you respect the WMR team’s view, did you see this picture (linked above);
…the issue is not all about money as your reply suggests, it’s mostly about the massive load on a fragile environment in such a short period of time… Plus the litter, which despite your good practices does exist in huge quantities! However, I’m glad you’ll be taking those banana skins home with you from now on… 😉
It’s a fact Mark, the pictures prove it – and if you still doubt, go and look for yourself after a group of challengers have been there – there’s loads of litter left by 3 peak challengers! You may be one of the few who don’t leave litter, great. But what are you doing to make a difference? Do you carry out other’s litter when you find it?
Richie, I think that perhaps Ian’s “machine gun” idea was a joke? 🙄
However, glad you are meeting with concerned groups; have you actually instigated any of this proactive work yourself?
Pete, as correctly stated, a lot of people attempting the challenge will be new to walking and the mountains, and may try to find some information or advice online via a website or walking forum. Very hostile responses from experienced walkers or climbers (a joke or not) will probably not stop them from attempting the challenge – but just stop them from seeking further information.
Hopefully, someone who actually reads past the first few postings in this blog will understand, or at least be aware, of some of the issues, and also how some people (like Mark) can have a low-impact challenge.
We have instigated some proactive work and practices ourselves. One being a possible solution to the ‘toilets’ problem at Wasdale and Seathwaite which FSB, NT and LDNPA may insist and Charity events use in the future.
We also produced an online video a few years back. It is 30 minutes long, and the first 10 minutes or so are just about selection of the team. However, after that, we tried to deal with as many issues as we could, and all stakeholders had the opportunity to put their own points of concern across. If you have the time, you may want to watch it (and to prove you’ve watched it you may want to spot the factual mistake 😕 ). It’s at:
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/microsites/B/bmw_3peaks/
I don’t mind if people read past the first few comments or not. Ian, and anyone else, is encouraged to remark as they feel fit. A joke like that is brilliant as far as I’m concerned. It gets the point across; the thousands of challengers that descend on Wasdale are systematically destroying this fragile bit of the countryside and as such they really aren’t welcome… 😐
OK Pete. Understood.
I’d like to hear your views on the OMM (formerly the KIMM) which had around 2,500 – 3,000 participants in the area over the weekend. Welcome or not?
Maybe Rachel can help out, but my understanding is that the OMM leaves the routes up to the competitors. That is, competitors may (and mostly do) take a different lines as they chose what suits their skills and desire to perform well. Also, each year it is held at a different location. Scafell hasn’t moved recently, whereas mountain marathon control points are never in the same place twice – kind off necessary to make sure it’s a navigational challenge…
This debate can carry on forever if you like Richie…
The facts are that (most of) the challengers leave lots litter, erode the paths, disturb Wasdale in the early hours, spend little, contribute little, etc., etc. This makes them unwelcome. Other groups (like the OMM) may also have an impact. That doesn’t make 3 peak challenges okay. You are biased towards preserving the 3 peak challenge because you make money from it; it’s your business. I am biased towards ending the 3 peak challenge as it exists today; because I want to preserve the mountain environment. This blog posting and the thread of comments is one thing I’m doing to help. However, you as an organiser should be doing more than defending your business and hiding behind education. Make a positive change…
There are 7 categories at the OMM. Four straight line courses and 3 score classes. The score classes do not have a set route at all – you have to visit as many controls as possible, so there is absolutely no mass movement along one route. As for the line courses (visit a number of controls in the correct order), there is some mass movement, however there are different route choices, so it really isn’t as bad as a fell race would be for example.
As Pete says the MM do change location each year and I think the worst damage done is by the parking … especially this year.
People have to carry their rubbish too and can be kit checked for this… so OMMers don’t go leaving anything.
Thanks Pete.I am aware of your thoughts regarding the Three Peaks. However, you misunderstood the question. It was not in regard to the Three Peaks Challenge, it was in regard to the OMM last weekend.
At Seathwaite and Borrowdale, visiting local areas including Scafell, Scafell Pike, Wasdale, Great Gable, etc., with everything it brings, and everything it takes – is it welcome or not?
Hi Rachel, thanks for the info – I’ve completed 10 KIMM’s/OMM’s so I know the score. I’ve also been a late starter on the A class, so I know map reading isn’t always required when you cross an open fell after some 200 other people and the muddy trail recently created leads you straight to the next control.
Every o/n campsite I’ve stopped at has always had a skip or similar, but I do spot a lot of discarded/dropped items during the events away from controls. Perhaps not intentional but still happens.
However, my question was not in regard to score classes or fixed route classes or litter – it was simply to know wether the OMM was welcome during the weekend or not..!
Richie, it is you who misunderstands… Regardless of other events being right or wrong, this does not make the 3 peaks challenge okay! That’s my issue here. It’s the old addage, “two wrongs do not make a right”.
However, to try and answer your question; I don’t really have a view, I don’t know enough about the OMM to make a balanced comment. But what I do know is …
Don’t divert attention to other issues Richie, make a positive change…
Thanks for your reply Pete. My question was simply in regard to the OMM – not the Three Peaks. I understand your feelings towards the Three Peaks, but wanted to know how you felt about last weekend’s OMM – which received some critisism in the media – and was held in a sensitive location.
But if you want to bring the blog thread back to the 3 Peaks – fair enough – it’s your blog..!
Make a positive change…. You keep telling me to be proactive, make positive change, put my money where my mouth is, etc. and I’ve tried to answer your postings truthfully showing you what I do already in this respect. Yes, the Three Peaks is part of my business (as you keep telling me) and it’s in my own ‘business’ interests to reduce any environmental impact and negative interest in this event.
To fully address the issues I need to be fully aware of the concerns – that’s why I keep asking you questions, and responding to your questions. Many other event organisers simply won’t entertain or engage in debate.
But I do see some unfair critisisms from your arguments.
1. Often buy all their supplies (food and equipment) back in their base areas. Yes and no. As stated, we spend quite a bit in the area, and would it make a difference to your argument if each challenger was required to spend X amount? You state you buy a cup of tea and slice of cake when walking/climbing at other locations. Although welcome, does this really support the local economy? Perhaps if you stayed in a B&B or hotel, as many challengers do, it would be more beneficial?
2. Burn 100s of litres of expensive carbon fuels. Wether expensive or not doesn’t really come into it. I agree the challenge requires a huge carbon footprint to be left, and apart from the Railway Children Three Peaks, and the Three Peaks by Public Transport, most other challenges regarded by some as ‘pure’ will actually burn more fuel. For the 3 Peaks Yacht Race for example, we did over 150 more miles than we do with a basic challenge group.
What doesn’t add up is that your website is devoted to worldwide adventure (which I think is great by the way) but you critisise challengers by travelling half way down the country to climb the three peaks, when you are happy to travel half way around the world to climb? If you were REALLY concerned about our environment, would you be flying to Canada “a lot”, or happy to see cheap flights to Cham from Liverpool etc…?
3. Erode footpaths. Yes, but this is hardly unique to the Three Peaks areas is it? A little research shows that this is a problem all over the UK at popular ‘scenic’ areas. Simply stopping challenges at Wasdale or Seathwaite is unlikely to address or cure the problem. Path reconstruction is nationwide, the Cumbria charity is Fix The Fells – not Fix Scafell Pike. Other popular paths in Cumbria have problems much larger than Scafell Pike. Are these walkers/day trippers/tourists not welcome too? Where is the balance? How decides?
4. Don’t linger even an extra second to notice the beauty of their surroundings. Probably not, but is it a valid argument to suggest you can only visit or walk in an area if you stop to comment on how nice the area is? Really? I’ve been mountaineering in some fantastic locations, but the weather has meant I’m only interested in getting off safely. Does this make me one of the unwelcome?
5. Block up tiny country lanes with dozens of waiting mini-buses. There is no excuse for this, and it’s something that is being addressed at the minute. However, country lanes are public rights of way, and anyone blocking such a right of way can be removed by the police. An example was the Llanberis Pass where climbers vehicles blocked the pass at unauthorised lay-bys, leading to Green Key Scheme buses requesting police to remove vehicles so they could pass. Lay-bys have now been blocked by local farmers/landowners.
6. Perhaps worst (?), leave rubbish all over the hills in their wake! To suggest that all, or most of, the litter and rubbish which you may encounter on Scafell Pike has been dumped by Three Peaks Challengers is at best ingenuous. There have been episodes of challenge events leaving binbags of rubbish at the Green, and the event organisers have been identified and dealt with. Rubbish and litter are by no means unique to the Three Peaks. I am often horrified to find litter or discarded gas canisters in remote areas that can only have been visited by experienced walkers…
I agree – most of all – take your litter home. But this goes for everyone, not just Three Peaks Challenge teams.
As for the OMM/KIMM – we’ve found discarded hexy stoves, karrimats, cereal bar wrappers, bubble wrap, maps, broken flasks, gloves, etc… when training on the previous event route. To suggest that every one of the 3000 competitors takes home every bit of rubbish or redundent kit just because they are ‘experienced’ walkers is a bit optimistic…
I’m quite happy to leave the ‘debate’ here, but if you want to reply – I will reply also.
Richie..
Richie, if you want to debate the OMM, that’s fine, but why not use one of the a posts about the OMM for that? This post is about 3 peak challenges…
So, it’s really great that you are keen to find out how to help. But, you’ve gone through my concerns again, and whilst I think they are all valid my main concerns (thus the pictures above) are the litter and the erosion. Not the monetary contributions to local areas etc. Yeah, sure there are other sources of litter in the hills, but you only have to be on Scafell on a 3 peak challenge day (as I was when I took these pictures) to see the masses of litter left by challengers.
Thus, when I say “put some money where your words are” and “make a positive change”, I’m referring to organising (at your expense) something positive. For example, as suggested above, why not have an event where the sole objectives are to collect litter and re-seed the damaged soil to the sides of paths? An environmentally friendly 3 peak challenge! Don’t just say that you’re working with the various authorities – do it yourself! If you were clever I imagine you could even make it profitable for your business… Heck, if you organise a day where 3 peak challengers will do nothing but clean up Scafell I’ll even come over and help. After all, I always end up carrying out as much litter as I have room for anyway.
This is not a war of words (which your last sentence threatens) this is a plea for you to get off your soap box and get actively stuck in to helping with the litter, damage, etc.
Thanks for your comments Pete. I’m sorry, I did not realise there was an OMM thread already running…
The litter clearing is already incorporated into our training days, but the voluntary path restoration is a good idea. I will suggest it to the NT as they would need to co-ordinate any works, but I’m sure it would be quite popular.
We had looked into organising a Three Peaks by Train for 2009, similar to the Railway Children event, which uses different footpaths for Scafell Pike and apart from some short local transfers, avoids road transport. The company supplying the engine and carriages is a train preservation charity.
Unfortunately many of the corporates who initially showed a keen interest last year have now pulled out due to insecurity of finances over the next 18 months. Shame, this event would have put a huge amount of money into the Eskdale area.
hi i have no idea what the heck has been said up there 😯 but any hi to you all :good:
I wouldn’t worry about a few banana skins, they’re completely biodegradable and don’t take long to break down at all.
I’ve never seen any evidence to suggest that “Thanks to the combined effects of desiccation in baking sunlight on fine days and freezer-like conditions in winter these skins will fester on for years to come”. Sheep tend to dispose of a lot of them too! They’re better off left (preferably out of sight) on the fells than in landfill!
Non-biodegradable litter, on the other hand, is of course completely unacceptable!
I don’t know if any pedants have pointed this out. But the photograph labelled as a fag packet appears in fact to be a photograph of a young women. It reminds me of memorials and devotions which I have seen on many mountains. I don’t really agree with littering in memory of a lost one but I don’t agree with labelling this persons daughter/ wife/ girlfriend as a packet of fags.
just a thought
Does it? Can’t say I can see it. Anyhow it’s still litter! :angry: And even if it is some kind of photo, there certainly are lots of fag ends, packets, and the annoyng plastic film wrappers flying around up there! Not good.
I don’t suppose any of the commercial organisations have attempted any kind of clear-up…
Now you point it out, I can see a lady on the picture – sharp eyes.
I wonder if it was a memorial.
I don’t like memorial litter either, especially plastic wrappers from flowers. Makes me feel really mean saying it. I like flowers, just not the rubbish that is left with them.